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Post by Calvin Constantine on Sept 23, 2008 23:17:38 GMT -6
I follow politics pretty closely. I think some of you do also and I was hoping we could have some debate.
Two observations I had tonight:
Why don't conservatives see the connection between the capitalist, free market systems they love and the cultural decadance they decry? The essence of capitalism is the interaction between demand and supply. It has found a way to somehow brand and merchandise nearly every perversion and prurience. On the other hand, the former Soviet Union was noted for its cultural austerity and Iran (while not necessarily "socialist" but certainly a conservative bugaboo) is certainly a very staid society.
The "race card" (eg, "OJ Simpson played the race card" or "Barack Obama is playing the race card") is basically an invention of bigots to deflect attention from their own racism and make themselves the victims in the conflicts their hatred gets them into.
Thoughts?
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Post by Bubba South on Sept 24, 2008 13:53:37 GMT -6
I mildly disagree w/ the "race card". Often, its used as a built in excuse for losing."Oh, if Barack Obama doesnt win, it must be bcuz everyone is racist". It doesnt necessarily have to be a "bigot".......
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Post by Sylver Morrigan on Sept 24, 2008 18:50:44 GMT -6
bigot: noun; a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.
the word 'bigot' means like the same thing as 'racist'. i don't understand the correlation between the first two posts.
i'm thinking that calvin is saying that racists use the race card to draw attention from their own racism; like when mccain's camp accused obama of playing the race card, they did that immediately and without provocation to point out 'hey, WE'RE not racist, he is'.
which means, of course, they are racist.
but what bubba is saying doesn't make any sense to me. saying that obama loses, it's because everyone's racist implies that the country full of racists won't vote for a black guy. that is kind of bigoted, imho. also imho, anyone who would say something like that in all seriousness is probably bigoted in some way, shape, or form.
also, if the race card were 'a built in excuse for losing', oj would have been rotting in a cell instead of robbing sports collectors at gunpoint.
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Post by Bubba South on Sept 24, 2008 22:50:22 GMT -6
Mrs. Sylver Morrigan- I was saying that from the African American perspective, per say. If Obama loses, you REALLY think that they wont be pissed off and railing about " oh, its a race issue. everyone is a racist!" u REALLY believe that? Perhaps, Mccains camp DID point this out, B4 Obama did 1st, ya know " Oh, Mccain and his camp are predjuidice. This is why they dont like us!"
OJ should be rotting in jail. Look at the Rodney King trial. They didnt want RACE RIOTS in LA, and let him walk. Now this upstanding citizen has been arrested HOW MANY times/ Please.
I am SURE ppl are going to be " Ol Hank here is a plumb racist. He makes me sick." Thats fine. I aint. But perhaps u havent ever encountered a situation of " I didnt get hired cuz im of color " or some shit. Who cares. But if u turn a blind eye, and pretend it DOESNT happen, whether it be w/ a job or whatever and race is NEVER mentioned as a reason/excuse for not getting what one feels entitled to/wants, then perhaps venture out a bit more. Again, im not racist, for GODS SAKE...simply...realistic.
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Post by Sylver Morrigan on Sept 25, 2008 14:01:12 GMT -6
mrs. sylver morrigan!? first off, interesting.
secondly, your accusation that i need to 'venture out' more is totally unfounded. you do not know me, you do not know my life, you do not know my experiences. you don't know the depths of racism or other forms of bigotry that i have experienced in my time.
and i'm guessing this unspecified 'they' you speak of, the 'they' that will be pissed off and railing about the race issue, these 'they' are the black people of this country? that alone, to me, in MY OPINION, is bigoted.
i also never said i thought racism didn't exist. i wish it didn't but it does. i'm realistic, but also optimistic that maybe if obama DID lose, not every black person in this country would say 'he lost cause he's black, he was screwed by the color of his skin'.
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Post by Bubba South on Sept 25, 2008 14:21:44 GMT -6
mrs. Sylver-
I apologize, if u feel i told only u , you need ot get out more. I didnt mean that, like that. I was referring to ppl in general, that some pretend things like this NEVER happen.
You can draw ur own conclusions, Mrs. Morrigan. You arent where I am from, so perhaps, u dont hear these whining excuses all the time. They exist here. Alot. Often.
And really? ANY BODY, white, red, pink, blue, black, male, female, WHATEVER who uses their RACE, SEX, or ANYTHING as a soap box and a reason/excuse for not getting what they want, is wrong IMHO. thats all i ment by this whole thing. if u didnt get hte job, if u didnt get in the school, if u didnt get elected, if ur ass is found guilty, its not what u do, or what u claim or nehting other then u werent the right person for hte jpob, u werent smart enuff for the school, the ppl didnt want u in office, or ur ass is guilty. Period. No exceptions, for ANYBODY, regardless. ug.
and I would hope they wouldnt complain if he lost either, but how muc hu wanna bet, if he loses, their gonna be using race as na excuse? sadly, i msure it wil lbe an issue if he loses. yeck.
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Juggernaut
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YEAH, I'M THE JUGGERNAUT BITCH!!
Posts: 43
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Post by Juggernaut on Sept 25, 2008 17:59:27 GMT -6
Bubbasouth
It seems that you are trying to convince everybody that you are not a racist when you start a character who emphasized the ideals of a southern racist.
Your character hates New Yorkers. He gloats of the battles that the south "won", and he proudly waves the Confederate flag.
I myself is of German origin but that doesn't mean I have the right to wave a flag with a swastika on it. I disagree with the mistake of my ancestors and choose to ignore their stupid ways.
So what stops you or your character from doing to same just because of where you grew up or what you were told growing up?
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Post by Bubba South on Sept 25, 2008 18:45:15 GMT -6
Mr. Juggernaut- My charachter Bubba South is racist? Have you seen a RP where Bubba has been racist to anybody? Or talked badly of another race? If so, please, point it out, and i will delete that immdiately. Or is it bcuz u see a Dixie Flag, and u automatically think" racist"? unreal. While Bubba is a good ol southern boy, he is proud of his heritage, his way of life, and wher ehe is from. Mayeb yo uhavent spent time i nthe deep south, or bene around of deep sout hpeople for extended periods of time, Sir. I dont know. But a Dixie Flag isn't racist. You can think whatever you would like Sir, that a person who is proud of where they are from, their traditions, their heritage, their kin folk ties, whatever, and has a confederate flag, is a born and bred hating racist. Way to make assumptions, Sir.
And let me know about all my racist comments and spewing hatred of other races i nthe rps. I look forward to deleting all the racist filth, i apprently offeneded everyone with.
have a splendid day Sir.
Hank
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Juggernaut
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YEAH, I'M THE JUGGERNAUT BITCH!!
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Post by Juggernaut on Sept 25, 2008 19:38:37 GMT -6
Bubbasouth
Like I already pointed out. I am of German "heritage". But does that make it alright for me to embrace the beliefs of my elders.
NO.
So why does it make it alright for a person born in the south to embrace the beliefs of their elders by still waving the flag that symbolized such injustice.
And as much as you believe you are not a racist. The fact that you stand behind that flag and defend its so called meanings makes you a racist and a hypocrite in my eyes.
I know that I can't take the nationalism away from someone but I just wanted to share my opinion.
I don't hate you as a person. I just don't agree with what you represent. If that makes any sense.
I'm not here to make anyone feel stupid. Just express my own thoughts and beliefs.
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Post by Calvin Constantine on Sept 25, 2008 19:38:57 GMT -6
To be honest, I was far more interested in the first point I made than the second.
As for OJ Simpson, I don't believe that any "race card" was played. What happened was the LAPD investigation, led by noted racist Mark Furhman, illegally obtained loads of evidence. If there was a competent judge presiding, none of the evidence would have been admissible (Mapp v. Ohio). If OJ had been convicted, the case would have been overturned on appeal. So I think OJ's lawyers brought up race, and rightfully so.
I don't think Rodney King had anything to do with it. Rodney King got beat up by the cops, triggering race riots. It's not as though somebody made some executive decision like "let's acquit OJ, so we don't have race riots". OJ was acquitted by a jury of his peers.
If Obama does lose the election, there probably will be a reaction along the lines of what Bubba has suggested, where African-Americans will identify racism as the major factor in the defeat. I'm not sure that they will be correct, but I think it's a natural reaction. You have a class of people that has historically been marginalized, disenfranchised, exploited, and set up to fail. One of them is nominated for President. How do you expect them to react if he loses?
Is it wrong to identify prejudice as a factor in your misfortune if it actually is?
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Post by Bubba South on Sept 25, 2008 20:20:52 GMT -6
Mr. Juggernaut- So ur telling me, every single person who owns and flies proudly a Confederate flag is a racist. Are we all Klan members too Sir? Must be, if we love the south, we love the heritage, and we love Dixie, we must be racist. My Grandmother, mother, and aunts, they all must be racists bcuz they fly Dixie over their flower gardens. My preacher, hes a bigot and a racist bcuz he as a rebel flag bumper sticker on his car that says " HERITAGE, not HATE". Think about that quote sir. Perhaps to ppl who actually LIVE in the south, and have for generations, its about HERITAGE, and NOT hate. But then again, a Northerner who ain't never lived in the deep south knows better huh? How close minded us stupid hick rednecks must be, we all just THINK we love the south and our heritage, why, we all are racists and bigots, and we dont even know it...so says the folk who dont live here. NOBODY[/i] i know believes in hatred, or slavery and other nonsense Sir. It is unfair for u to assume that the Dixie and all her proud owners are frothing at the mouth racists who burn crosses for a good time. I think you watch too many movies, and , and dont pay enough visits to the country, to get southern pride Sir, since to you, its all about hatred and stupid shit like that. I'm proud of where i am from sir, and I'll be damned if it a anything to do w/ hating anybody. Very open minded of you Sir to call me a racist and a hypocrite.
Mr. Calvin- The OJ police work was a joke. Fuhrman was a piece of trash. Any real detective would of had a slam dunk case on his ass. Thats alright, hes fixing to get his in this current trial.
I dont really that they acquitted Rodney bcuz he was such a great, upstanding citizen. They saw what happened B4 the trial, and prolly KNEW, if hte convicted him, the city of LA would get burned to the ground, for whatever sense that makes. Its ok though. Hes proven what a fine human he is.
If Obama loses, it isn't bcuz hes black. Its bcuz hes not the right man for the job. Stating " Oh, its a racial thing", is a cheap shot for the uneducated, the small minded, and those looking for a pathetic excuse for not winning. If McCain loses, should the white folk all get up in arms, and say that hes white, thats why he lost? Does THAT make ne sense, or is it a one way street w/ that argument?
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Post by Calvin Constantine on Sept 25, 2008 20:39:01 GMT -6
"White Americans" are still a majority and African Americans make up about 12 percent of the electorate, so if McCain loses, it ain't going to be because he's white.
A recent poll noted that one third of REGISTERED DEMOCRATS have negative attitudes or feelings toward African Americans. I have no data on what the figure would be for Republicans.
If Obama loses, I am not saying he lost because of race. I'm simply saying that race certainly is a factor in the result.
Besides, arguing the reverse (If McCain loses, is it because of race?) is a logical fallacy. I know you mean it in jest, but it's just not a fair comparison.
For one, as I've pointed out, white voters make up a majority of the electorate. So, by and large, you have white voters passing judgment on a black candidate.
Number two, that argument presumes that there is a level playing field between white Americans and black Americans. Who faces more discrimination, both historically and currently? I think black Americans certainly have and do.
There are racist people out there, and they vote. If you look at the pivotal states in this election, the states the election will likely swing on (Ohio, Florida, Michigan, Virginia), I believe there are people in those states who will not vote for Obama because he's black. Ironically, I think these are the people whose interests would be best served by an Obama presidency (Obama is proposing larger tax cuts for the bottom 70 percent of Americans and proposing expansion of programs that would help these people).
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Post by LB! on Sept 27, 2008 21:21:46 GMT -6
The confederate flag is not only a symbol of racism but its also a symbol of the widest scale treason against the United States in its history.
And if Obama loses it will absolutely be because he's black, both directly because people aren't comfortable with the idea of a black president or because of the Muslim smears or crazy black preacher no one would given a shit about if he weren't black.
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Post by Judah "The Lion" Walton on Oct 2, 2008 18:12:44 GMT -6
Let me chime in as the only black peson on in this fed that I know of. Bubba, I live in Birmingham and have for the last 23 years of my soon to be 31 years. It's quite easy to say that the race card is a cop out when you've never experience it for yourself. Now, before I go on do I think the race card is overrated? Yes, I do. It's a case of the boy who cried wolf in most instances. Now remember this is coming from a black man.
However, I've had to experience racism in some form for most of my adult life. For instance when I was unemployed I saturated my area with resumes' and never got one call. I believe this was simply because of my name. My name first name is Azikiwee, which suggested that I was either a foreigner or of ethnic descent. The only way I was able to get a job was that I had to show up at a job fair in person and someone gave me a chance. Even though I wasn't qualified for the job...Go figure. Secondly, you don't know how many times when I walk in the vicinity of a caucasion woman that they grab their purses. This is whether I'm wearing a suit (which I do on a regular basis) or I'm wearing business causal clothing, or if I'm in athletic gear. Doesn't matter.
Now to address Barack Obama and the black vote. I'm going to be brutally honest and say I'm not voting for Barack because he's a black man. I'm voting for him because I believe in his platform. Unfortunately, there are some from my race that are voting because of that fact and I can understand. For so many years we've (African-Americans) have been seen in mainstream media as either entertainers, atheletes, religious leaders, or criminals. This is the first time since I've been alive that someone who was running for president actually had a snowball's chance in hell of acheiving that goal.
Let's think about in the last 16-20 years we've had two black candidates who announced their intentions Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton. Both in my opinion, are jokes in the political arena and has created the "boy crying wolf" syndrome in recent years for black americans. However, today therei is a candidate of color who actually has some form of creditbility. I hope that he is able to win the election, I really do. However, if he does lose, his race will have alot to do with it. I don't know why I can't say for sure. I would like to think that we've migrated to another level of logical thinking. However, in some people's minds black people will always be sub-human and unlearned. I live this on a daily basis where I can walk down the hall of my job and speak to a white man he'll act as if I haven't said word. Now, take into account I was in the marines and I am not a soft spoken man at all. I've realized and internalized that it is what it is...it doesn't make it right, but I have to live that.
Bubba, I'm from the deep south, the heart of dixie and your perception of the south isn't pure reality. I'd be willing bet that you're aquintances with people who have the same mentatilty that you do about the confederate flag. That doesn't make you a bad person, I understand. I've got some black aquintances who belive alternative theories that border on your defense of the conferedate flag and I don't agree with them one bit. I personally believe that the confederate flag is a symbol of hate and bigotry. If you'll check your history one of the foremost reasons the south pulled out of the union was because of the issue of slavery.
Now, I can understand how you can say "Well, I'm not racist I just believe they stood up for what they believed and fought for that." The nobility of standing for your beliefs is great, however, what they were fighting for was morally and socially wrong. Hey man I'm not trying to change your mind. I just want you to know the "black" view (I hate that term, but I don't have any other way to say it).
I hope that I've established myself as credible and forthright. I'm not your typical black man that agrees with the logic that the "the white man has held us down" because that is not the whole truth. I'm not your typical Christian that agrees with the Republican party because of their morals, because at the end of the day they're hypocritical. I just want what's best for the country and I believe that's Barack. Not because of his skin color or his charisma, but because of his track record and my perception of his integrity. That's just my .02.
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Post by Myst on Oct 2, 2008 20:30:20 GMT -6
, you don't know how many times when I walk in the vicinity of a caucasion woman that they grab their purses. Same here...but that is probably because as an overweight white man with a crazy beard, I look like a rapist.
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